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Again, at the beginning of the fourth podcast, Michael Patton emphasized that this issue is an important one. There are people in both camps, Cessationists and Charismatics, that will say the the other side is either “far from the Lord or unsaved.” One of the reasons of the podcast is to show that that is not the case.
They decide what the central issue is in this podcast. Patton asks Storms to do just that. Sam Storms says that the center is whether the gifts specifically in 1 Corinthians 12:7-10 are still active today, not so much a worship style or if one group is more aware or dependent on the Spirit. He’s seen both cessationist and charaismatic churches worship the same way. The problem with the awareness or dependence on the Holy Spirit because charismatics are put into the position of questioning cessationists.
1 Corinthians 12:7-10:
 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.  For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,  to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,  to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
Other listed gifts in the podcasts were Ephesians 4, 1 Peter 4, and Romans 12. 1 Corinthians 12 contains the list that some believe they ceased to an exhaustion in purpose.
After clarifying this, Michael asks Sam to explain why cessationists would argue that certain gifts have ceased. Sam gives 5 reasons:
- Primary purpose was to bear witness to the Gospel message.
- Reveletory gifts undermine the sufficiency and finality of Scripture.
- Church History: no evidence past the first couple hundred years of church of the use of the gifts.
- Disdain of the fanatics that brought dishonor on Jesus and the Gospel.
- Lack of personal charismatic experience in his own life.
Other issue they want to clarify is the implications or what’s at stake.
From that they discuss what they are seeing in the comments are that people are struggling with abuses even though they are charismatic. Sam points to the fact that the problem isn’t unique to the 21st century. It was also an issue with the Thessalonians (1 Thessalonians 5). Despising prophetic utterances quenches the Spirit and the response is to handle it rightly. “Paul’s response to abuse is not disuse but proper use.” (Storms) Sam points to the fact that the problem is not the gifts but people.
Sam’s response to the “so what?” question is that the gifts are for edification. All things are tools to edify the church, even the gifts. Even individuals are edified. Even Jude commands self-edification, maturity. Then, driven to this next point, Sam clarifies that we can’t compare the maturity of other Christians but the personal growth of an individual believer. Character is always a measure of maturity above gifting. There are gifted people that have really bad character.
Tim then brings up another idea, that a person that only get’s say the gift of hospitality isn’t an less mature than someone else with tongues or healing.
In closing Michael emphasizes the need to disassociate Charismatics from the abusers, because as long as those are there, the issue cannot be dealt with.
There is a lot of good stuff in this podcast. A lot more than usual since the podcast went over by quite a bit. I’m glad they clarified the discussion to continuationism vs cessationism, especially narrowing down to the passage of 1 Corinthians 12:7-10. I’m also glad Michael had Sam discuss why he once believed in cessationism and what the reasons were. He even clarified that he doesn’t believe in the first two, the third has been actually shown otherwise and that the fourth was wrong. I’m glad Sam brought up that the issue at hand isn’t just a 21st century issue but an issue during the whole history of the church. Then I’m glad that Sam clarifies that the gifts are not just for proclaiming the Gospel message but for the edification of the church. He quoted quite a few passages from 1 Corinthians 12. Lastly I’m glad that Tim asked the question he did and that Sam answered it by saying that the person who gets tongues isn’t any better off or mature than the believer who gets just hospitality. These questions and clarifications are all good ones in my opinion. As I started digging into them, they probably would be a lot of the questions I would have brought up, especially the reason for the gifts, as proclaiming the Gospel. Sam showed otherwise. Knowing that isn’t not an issue of maturity also is comforting. I plan on looking at those passages mentioned and thinking about them and then posting my thoughts on them later on in the week. Hopefully it’ll help me be more decisive and decided about my conviction of the issue. Lastly I’m glad that Michael closed the podcast with the need for disassociation of abusers from other Charismatics.
Thanks guys for the podcast. Looking forward to this weeks podcast
NOTE: There weren’t any related Parchment and Pen blog posts to this podcast as they were all over the place, yet narrowing and clarifying their discussions.
Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.
These four verses come at the end of a thought on the disobedience of Israel as God’s means to show mercy to the Gentiles and ultimately all peoples, Gentiles and Jews. In these two verses Paul is marveling at the mind of God coming up with such a plan as that. It seems as if he breaks into praise at the end of this passage that God’s riches, wisdom, and knowledge are deep, very deep. God’s riches are gigantic. Think of his mercy and grace and kindness and love that He shows to humanity as we continue to sin against Him. Even believers still since against God. Even we are not perfect and we are plunged further and further into God’s mercy, grace, and kindness, which come from His steadfast love. And there is God’s wisdom, that by doing such He receives most glory. He would allow a hardening of Israel to bring in the Gentiles to then save all Israel. God’s wisdom is informed by his knowledge. He knows what will happen because it’s His creation and He made it. So He knows how to act in it according to His wisdom. Then Paul quotes two passages of the Old Testament which the correct answer is No one. No one has know the mind of God or been His counselor. No one has given a gift that God has to repay. God is the ultimate source of all things. Paul then ends on a very high truth. All things are from God, given source from God, and to God. Everything is about God because it’s about his glory.
Father, meditating on this verse turned my heart to praise. Even reading the context shed more light on the verses. Father, allow me to remember this verse and meditate on it often that all things are from You and through You and to You. The goal of all things is to make you known and give you glory. Your knowledge is deep. Your wisdom is deep. Your inexplicable riches are deep. Your thought’s are above our thoughts and Your ways are above our ways. You are Holy, separate from us, above us by an infinite number of degrees. Father, let me find satisfaction in this passage and let it fill me with joy as I think of how You are. And then to think that Jesus was the expression of this to us because He made You known to us. I’m further indebted to Your grace. Thank You Holy Spirit for revealing these truths to me that I might be more edified for the cause of my relationship with God to improve.
In Jesus Name I boldly approach the throne of grace because of His work. I ask that these requests be done in His Name and for His glory, Amen.
FighterVerses.com Blog Posts for This Verse
So this is my second official recap blog on the Resolved Conference 2011. The first one was on the worship, which was awesome. Not at every session, but a lot of them, they recommended books. All of them were in the store. I’d like to highlight the books that I’m familiar with. Maybe I can go back and review them on the blog and how they point to the Gospel.
Well, first I want to mention a CD they commended that I know commend. It’s called Love Divine. It’s hymns that were set to contemporary music. Bob Kauflin, Sunday morning when he lead worship recommended the CD. They also gave away download codes to everyone to get the 4 free songs from the CD. I got those then ended up buying the CD because I love to find solid, God-exalting, Gospel-centered songs and worship. Just to list a few of the titles, “And Can It Be?,” “Come Thou Long Expected Jesus,” “O For A Thousand Tongues,” and “I Know That My Redeemer Lives.” You can get a free download of “I Know That My Redeemer Lives” at the CDs main site. The whole point of the CD is to be a tribute to Charles Wesley. They are all hymns he wrote. The site has more than downloads. It also has an about section of the CD, the ability to listen to 4 of the songs and the ability to see videos about the CD. Get the CD.
Now onto the books. I had trouble figuring out which order I’d discuss the ones I was familiar with. No specific order.
The Valley of Vision
The Valley of Vision is a collection of prayers of Puritans. They are on a variety of subjects. From a heart in the depths to a heart overjoyed in God. From personal confession and repentance to an exalting of Christ and His work. It personally has helped me, set my heart a-fire when I read a few of them when I was down and dry. It really is worth purchasing.
What Is The Gospel?
The book was written by Greg Gilbert because there is a lack of clarity on what the gospel actually is. His hope would have been not to have had written the book. It’s a very good book though that pretty much is an exposition of Romans and goes through and touches on every aspect of the Gospel. I read it this last year. A really good read. Worth reading, maybe even giving to an unbelieving friend. Actually, give it to an unbelieving friend, then talk with them through it.
Living The Cross Centered Life
This book is actually two books in one of CJ Mahaney’s, The Cross Centered Life and Christ Our Mediator. The book essentially is to try and convince the reader that the Gospel needs to be the center of a believers life that they go over daily. When I read it, my heart was set a-flame a-fresh for the Gospel. My heart was set again to worship. A book on setting the Gospel as the center of ones life can’t not have the Gospel in it. The premise is that if you are going to have a Gospel centered life, you need to have gospel centered days because the life is made up of days. It’s a short book, but worth the read as it drives home a specific point.
Just Do Something
Just Do Something is a look at God’s will, and correction of the misconception of what that means. The point of this book is that there is God’s revealed will in the scriptures of what pleases Him and what He wants us to do, like make disciples, and God’s sovereign will that is played out as time moves forward. When it comes to who to marry, what major to take, what career to pursue, the point is to just do something because they are part of God’s sovereign will and will unfold as events unfold. So then what? Do something. Move forward asking God to lead you as you move, He will guide your steps (Proverbs 3:6).
Uneclipsing the Son
This is Rick Hollands new book. At this point I’m halfway through it and it is good. His main point is that in America, we’ve settled for an eclipsed view of Christ and have gotten accustomed to it and his goal in the book is to remove the eclipse and let the whole glory of the Son shine on the readers heart. It’s been convicting as I’ve been reading it. So far the best chapter in my opinion was the second chapter which was the presentation of the Gospel. The gospel, the revealing of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Everyone at Resolved recieved a complementary copy because of a generous donor. Donor, whoever you are thank you for providing this book. It has been worth the read.
This book is another of CJ Mahaney’s. I haven’t read this book. This is the only book of the bunch that I haven’t read. I’ve heard CJ Mahaney talk about this book and clarify about it many times. First he states that he is not a humble man. Writing the book humbled him he said. How does someone write a book about humility without looking proud. I own this book. I have yet to humble myself and read it.
That’s all I have to say about the books that were recommended. below is the list of the book that were recommended and when they were. I didn’t have time to make them all look as nice as I would have liked but most of the books are written by the guys that the sermon session was. Look up the books and see if they are worth getting.
Session 2: John MacArthur
Book: How to Study the Bible John MacArthur
Session 3: Al Mohler
Books: Atheism, He is Not Silent, Words From the Fire
Session 4: John MacArthur
Books: Rick holland’s book, just do something, expository listening (how to listen to a sermon), valley of vision
Session 6: C. J. Mahaney
Books: Living The Cross Centered Life, Humility
Session 7: Steve Lawson
Books: Essential Edwards Collection,unwavering Resolve of Jonathan Edwards, Pillars of Grace
Session 8: Rick Holland
Books: worldliness (audio), Quick scripture reference for counseling, the greener grass conspiracy, minority report (Truman), the wages of spin
Session 10: Al Mohler
Books: baker commentary, why we love the church – Seymour, the incomparable Christ, what is the gospel?
CD: Love Divine each get download code
In the third podcast from my opinion, they were all over the place. They took about 8 mins in the introduction to introduce their newest guy in the series, JJ, a Charismatic, and do announcements. JJ now makes the two “sides” even. Now their is Michael and Tim as Cessationists, and Sam and JJ as Charismatics.
From about 8 mins, Michael lays out that the two things that are on the table that he’d like to cover: 1) He wants to furthur clarify what that mean by Charismatic, and 2) clarify that there are life implications.
The second one is answered right off the bat. There are life implications. It affects ones view of God and how one person lives daily life more than say eschatology does.
The first one is where the discussion goes everywhere. They discuss how both men are taking it from two sides. Michael is looking at it from a continuum perspective, while Sam is looking at it from a what does God say, this requires obedience perspective. Another topic discussed is that it’s possible it’s a matter of terminology. JJ brought up that it’s possible that cessationists can employ the gifts and they would call it feeling an urge from the Lord. He gave a couple of examples of that idea. They also discussed worship. Sometimes cessationists have a more charismatic worship service but sometimes it’s done as a church growth strategy rather than as a spiritual conviction. They even discuss the theology of demonology from both sides and how they would respond to demons.
At the end of the podcast, Michael tries to bring it back around to what he wanted to answer by asking the question, is the issue they are trying to discuss whether speaking in tongues, prophecy, and healings still continue or not? Like is that what defines a Charismatic or the power of the Holy Spirit in someones life? Is it the three things or more than that? They never get to it because Sam comes back and asks the power of the Holy Spirit to what end? Battle temptation? Quicken mind to preach? Evangelism? Or for the full range of the gifts? There are cessationists that clearly rely on the power of the Holy Spirit.
Personally, I do believe that someone’s view of God and life will be impacted by what they believe in terms of the charismatic viewpoint or cessationist viewpoint. With Charismatic, God is way more, deeply, intimately involved in the world in the sense that He is giving personal words to people, healing people, crossing borders through the supernatural speaking of other languages. As well as the fact that God could do that at any moment in a believers life toward and for another person.
For me, in defining the meaning that Michael tried to clarify at the end but didn’t get, I personally am not sure on what I would say a Charismatic is either. They would seem to have a bigger role for the Holy Spirit, and that would include both the fact that the role Jesus prescribed for the Holy Spirit as Helper, Teacher, Guide, and to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 14:26; 16:8). Are the gifts the means by which the Holy Spirit would cause this to happen? Helper, Teach, Guide and even Comforter (Acts 9:41) would be for believers, so edification of the church would be the role of the Spirit. But convicting the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment would be an aspect of evangelism, which would lead to glorifying Christ (John 16:14), because those are the bad news that point to Jesus as Savior. Cessationists would cling to this power of the Holy Spirit to reveal the Word, to convict both believers and unbelievers of sin, judgment and righteousness. Thinking all that through, it would be more of a matter of the Holy Spirit still giving and applying those gifts among believers today, because the power of the Holy Spirit is even essential for cessationists.
Like I said in my last post, I found a new podcast to listen to called Theology Unplugged. The current series of discussions is on Continuationism, the belief on whether the gifts of the Spirit like tongues, miraculous healings, and prophecies are still in use today. In my last post I discussed their first podcast discussing definitions. In this post, I’m going to look at their background stories.
Really this series is supposed to be a discussion between Sam Storms (the Charismatic) and Michael Patton (the Cessationist). Each man gave background to why he holds to his belief.
Michael Patton, right from the outset admitted to wanting to be Charismatic. For him, he wants to experience God in a more supernatural way and experience God more imminently and stop experiencing God in a mundane way of say daily obedience, but not a real closeness with God. But also on the flip side he is hesitant to associate with that and encourage that because he doesn’t want to build up expectations for people, pulling up their faith, then not have God move in the way that the person was expecting. As they put it, it drains someone or takes a lot of air our of someones recently filled balloon that is holding up their faith.
Sam’s story is that he used to be a Cessationist. He went to school at Dallas, which is totally Cessationist. He even argued against the Charistmatic point of view. One of the things that really caused him to rethink his view was reading D.A. Carson’s book Showing the Spirit. The book tore down the arguments he had been using for Cessationism. Over time, other things happened like re-engagement with Jack Deere. Then he went to a prophecy meeting, and the man who prophesied about him, knew details that only God would know from Sam’s prayers, and they came true. But this wasn’t the only experience he had. Overtime God pulled him toward being a Charismatic, but his wife took a little longer, but eventually she came to believe as she started experiencing the Spirit moving in the Charismatic way. At first she thought he went off the deep end because he had taught her in the cessationist view. He accumulated a better relationship with God, freedom, joy, a new dimention of intimacy with His relationship with God. He wrote a full bio in a book called
For me, I totally resonate with Michael Patton because I don’t want to build up an expectation in people and have God not move in the way I said He would move. Yet, I also desire to experience God in that way he describes, and Sam describes. I want to have a more intimate experience with God than I already have. Though I can’t deny Sam’s experience. I can’t say he didn’t experience it. I wasn’t there. Experiences are more subjective. So I do desire the experience but I also am concerned with the desire to protect people and not putting up expectations for people that I don’t know if they will happen. But I want that intimacy, worship, the joy and freedom to enjoy God.
During the podcast Sam also mentions a few more books as he was going through his story.
I said I would post the songs that were sung in the last post and I didn’t. So I’ll post them here. Please though read my actual recap in my last post where it actually is. Sorry I only inluded titles. I don’t have lots of time to search out where they are. The first few places to check would be the Enfield CDs, and Sovereign Grace Music.
Session 1: Rick Holland
1. Be Thou My Vision
2. Come People of the Risen King
3. The Solid Rock
4. The Glories of Calvary
5. No Other Savior
6. Revelation Song – Chorus
7. There is A Fountain
8. Rock of Ages
9. Man Of Sorrows
Session 2: John MacArthur
1. By Faith – we will stand as children of the promise
2. Jesus Shall Reign
3. O the Deep, Deep Love of Jesus
4. Psalm 62 Thankyou music
5. I Will Glory in My Redeemer
Session 3: Al Mohler
1. Crown Him with Many Crowns
2. Let Your Kingdom Come
Session 4: John MacArthur
1. The Church’s One Foundation
2. In Christ Alone
3. How Firm a Foundation
4. The Solid Rock
5. O Church Arise
6. The Church’s One Foundation (Last verse)
Session 5: Panel Q&A
1. Our Great God
Session 6: C. J. Mahaney
Guest Worship Leader: Bob Kauflin
1. Glorious And Mighty
2. Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing
3. You Have Been Raised
4. Crown Him with Many Crowns
5. O Great God
6. All I Have Is Christ
7. Before the Throne
Session 7: Steve Lawson
1. When Trials Come
2. Jesus is Lord
3. Jesus Shall Reign
4. And Can It Be?
5. Jesus, Thank You
Session 8: Rick Holland
1. Lead On, O King Eternal
2. Glorious and Mighty
3. all Hail the Power Of Jesus Name
4. Rock of Ages
5. the power of the cross
6. All I have is Christ
7. Mercy Awaits
Session 9: Steve Lawson
1. Blessed Be Your Name
2. Jesus, I My Cross Have Taken
Session 10: Al Mohler
1. Come Christians Join to sing
2. Eternal Praise
3. By faith
4. Psalm 62 Stuart Townsend
5. The Solid Rock
6. no other saviour
7. how marvelous
Session 11: C. J. Mahaney
1. Alive In Christ
2. There is a fountain
3. And Can It Be?
4. Jesus, Thank You
5. Amazing Grace
6. Finally Home
Check out and find any music you don’t have.
About a month ago, I was at Resolved 2011. Resolved is hosted by Grace Community Church where John MacArthur pastors. I’ve been to Resolved every year since 2007. God used the 2007 conference to save me. The theme for that year was The Gospel, so it’s obvious that it’s the one I’d get saved through.
Well, every year the has worship awesome and this year was no difference. The theme even for the worship this year was Christ our Refuge and stronghold.
The worship is always Christ-centered and Gospel saturated. I actually wrote down all the songs we sang so I could research and find the ones I didn’t have yet. I’ll include the list at the end. Sorry titles only.
Besides their typical hymns they put to contemporary music like that you can find on their CDs, and songs from Sovereign Grace Music which I’d highly recommend, they played a couple of modern ones which I thoroughly enjoyed. One of the modern ones they played was No Other Saviour by Starfield. I liked that song so much that when I got back to the hotel I found it and bought it. Trust me, Google the lyrics.
One of the other modern songs they sang that I really enjoyed was Psalm 62 by Aaron Keyes. Sometimes the song is called My Soul Finds Rest. It all depends which album you purchase it from. I found three or four when I searched it up on iTunes. I liked this song so much I’d including the lyrics right below. You can also listen to the whole thing on this blog.
My soul finds rest in God alone,
My Rock and my salvation,
A fortress strong against my foes,
And I will not be shaken.
Though lips may bless and hearts may curse,
And lies like arrows pierce me,
I’ll fix my heart on righteousness,
I’ll look to Him who hears me.
O praise Him, hallelujah,
My Delight and my Reward;
Everlasting, never failing,
My Redeemer, my God.
Find rest, my soul, in God alone
Amid the world’s temptations;
When evil seeks to take a hold
I’ll cling to my salvation.
Though riches come and riches go,
Don’t set your heart upon them;
The fields of hope in which I sow
Are harvested in heaven.
I’ll set my gaze on God alone,
And trust in Him completely;
With every day pour out my soul,
And He will prove His mercy.
Though life is but a fleeting breath,
A sigh too brief to measure,
My King has crushed the curse of death
And I am His forever.
O praise Him, O praise Him, hallelujah, hallelujah,
O praise Him, O praise Him, hallelujah, hallelujah,
O praise Him, O praise Him, hallelujah! hallelujah!
O praise Him, hallelujah,
Next post I’ll be posting about the recommended resources (pretty much the books).
Here is a link to the post with the songs we sang per session.
Get these two songs and Go to Resolved 2012.
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
There are two aspects of working going on in this verse. Human belief and being born of God, and the promise of becoming a child of God. The verse doesn’t say that anyone will believe. Nor does it say what we have the ability to believe. It just says that those that do receive Jesus, believe in His name, he gives the right to become a child of God. It is Jesus that gives the right to become a child of God. It isn’t the person doing the believing that gives the right to become a child of God, but Jesus the true light. The context of the verse is Jesus being the true light from God and peoples rejection or receiving of Him. His own rejected him (v11), but some believed. Those who believed who He was, He gave the right to be God’s children. They were born from the will of God. It wasn’t of blood, flesh or the will of man which is natural birth, but from the will of God, spiritual birth. My faith in Jesus, believing in His name gave me the right to be a child of God, born of the will of God. This verse is interesting. If my belief caused God to act, then it was ultimately my will that caused me to be born, because God would be reacting to me, yet, I have to believe to get the right to become a child of God. My belief and God’s willing act of birth must be simultaneous. Why? Because if my belief makes me a child, but being a child comes as a result of being born of the will of God, they must be simultaneous, but maybe not. It says nothing of my faith being an act of my will. faith required to acquire the right to be come child of God. Being born of the will of God required for becoming a child of God. Both faith and being born are required, yet only “the will” is mention from one side and that is God’s. It’s like the faith and being born overlap. Faith must be from the will of God.
Father, meditating on this verse has given me great insight. Thinking about this verse shows me that both faith and being born of the will of God are required to become a child of God. Help me both to learn this verse and how to apply it to my life, as well as be able to use it to edify others. Let me do this for Your glory and my good and the good of others.
In Jesus Name I ask, Amen.